Class Discussion,
Main Room
Date 2/16/98
Start log: Monday, February 16, 1998
3:22:29 pm Virtual Park Hall time --
KurtDa says, "I didn't get anything from you either"
JulieOw says, "it happens"
KurtDa says, "what's up with that mom?"
JulieOw says, "well.. um... it is in the mail"
JasonOg says, "I got drunk from my good friends at Heineken"
KurtDa laughs.
MaggieCa says, "are we discussing last weekend?"
JasonOg says, "yes"
JasonOg says, "it was great"
KurtDa says, "My buddies at Boones farm and triple sec hooked me up"
MaggieCa says, "did everyone have a good one?"
JasonOg laughs
KurtDa says, "oh yea"
JulieOw says, "YES"
MaggieCa says, "mine was incredible"
JasonOg says, "damn straight"
MaggieCa says, "I'm glad y'all had fun"
KurtDa says, "thank you"
Mr.Cole says, "Um, we aren't supposed to discuss substance abuse on campus until later this week."
JasonOg laughs
KurtDa says, "we're studeing for our papers"
NickSm has arrived.
KurtDa says, "studying"
MaggieCa laughs
AndrewGo has arrived.
FrankBl has arrived.
KurtDa says, "besides, I wasn't on campus"
JasonOg says, "neither was I"
Mr.Cole says, "Fair enough. ;)"
FrankBl says, "what is going on"
JoeSa has arrived.
JoeSa says, "Sorry I'm late"
MiMa says, "for once, I didn't do anything all weekend"
MaggieCa says, "I really didn't either"
FrankBl says, "did anybody go anwhere"
FrankBl says, "abywhere"
JoeSa says, "why not Mi Anne?"
MiMa says, "did everyone have a valentine?"
MaggieCa says, "I went to Savannah"
KurtDa says, "I went to Atlanta"
MaggieCa says, "with my boyfriend"
JoeSa says, "I went to work"
FrankBl says, "I can not spell today"
MiMa says, "Stephen and I went out some"
NickSm says, "yeah, her name was bud, bud light"
FrankBl says, "who is your boyfriend"
MiMa says, "Joe, where you here?"
JasonOg says, "I went to some friends apartment just off campus and to Armadillos"
MaggieCa says, "Patrick Connell"
JoeSa says, "Cool MiAnne"
JoeSa says, "Huh?"
MiMa says, "where you in athens?"
JoeSa says, "were"
JoeSa says, "yeah"
FrankBl says, "cool, I went back to Nashville to see my girlfriend"
MaggieCa says, "We had a social at the Amodillo's last Wed."
MiMa says, "oops, sorry"
WendyFr has arrived.
JoeSa laughs
KurtDa says, "hey Wendy"
FrankBl says, "what soriety are you in Maggie"
WendyFr says, "hey Kurt"
MaggieCa says, "ADPi"
Mr.Cole says, "OK, folks, listen up."
JoeSa no one kan spel 2 dae
NickSm says, "how was the rest of your night on saturday, wendy?"
WendyFr laughs.
FrankBl says, "do you know Julie Graham and Lauren Cofee"
WendyFr says, "it was good"
MaggieCa says, "Yep, they're great"
FrankBl says, "I know them from home"
MaggieCa says, "What's up Mr. Cole?"
JoeSa says, "frosted flakes are greeaat!!"
MaggieCa says, "I love them"
Mr.Cole says, "I was somewhat distressed while grading the last set of papers. Although I saw some"
JoeSa says, "why Mr.Cole?"
Mr.Cole says, "oops, improvement, I also saw some regression, particularly in the area of grammar and mechanics."
JasonOg says, "don't count those last papers Mr.C"
FrankBl says, "please"
KurtDa says, "seriously"
AndrewGo says, "Hey, I liked my grade"
KurtDa says, "oh yea, Mr.C, do we get to rewrtie any papers"
MaggieCa says, "mine was definitely not an improvement."
MiMa says, "Mr. Cole, did you get my paper ok?"
KurtDa says, "?"
JasonOg says, "yes, what about rewrites"
FrankBl says, "how much do those count in the over all grade"
FrankBl says, "I need a rewrite"
MaggieCa says, "me too"
KurtDa says, "Me too"
Mr.Cole says, "Grammar isn't fun, but it is important. Like I said at the beginning of the class, although you don't get any points for beautiful grammar, you can lose a lot of credibility with bad grammar. "
JulieOw says, "I think 10% of our grade"
FrankBl says, "more than that"
KurtDa says, "No, the 2nd paper is 10%"
MaggieCa says, "I wish the first one counted more than the last one"
JasonOg says, "so do I"
KurtDa says, "Me too"
JoeSa says, "Wuddareyalltalkinabout. Grammarisfun!!!"
KurtDa says, "Joe, feeling a little sarcatic today?"
Mr.Cole says, "I don't do rewrites, for the most part. But there is plenty of time to pull up your grades if you are not happy about them thus far."
KurtDa says, "I hope so"
AndrewGo says, "Cool"
JasonOg says, "I'm going to die"
JoeSa says, "Oh yeah"
FrankBl says, "how do the grades of the papers break down"
GeraldLa has arrived.
FrankBl says, "how much do each one of them count"
MaggieCa says, "it's on the web board isn't it"
JoeSa says, "my grade definitely broke down"
FrankBl says, "where"
MaggieCa says, "i don't remember"
MaggieCa says, "I know i've seen it before though"
JasonOg says, "from now on, I'm just going to write boring simple essays"
Mr.Cole says, "I don't think the breakdown is important, Frank. What I want to emphasize is the need to spend some time in the revision and proofreading stages."
MaggieCa says, "definitely"
KurtDa says, "true"
FrankBl says, "I need to spend a little more than some time"
JasonOg says, "I disagree, I spent more time revising than writing the essay"
Mr.Cole says, "No, Jason, the answer is not to write boring, smple essays. Sure, you might pass doing that, but you won't get very far doing it."
MiMa says, "are we discussing papers today?"
JoeSa loves the weather
JoeSa laughs
MaggieCa says, "yes "
MiMa says, "ha, ha"
KurtDa says, "I love it when I have to go to class online in this weather, but when I have to walk....."
Mr.Cole says, "One thing I noticed a lot was pronblems with agreement. So I put together some slides to review that. We hit it quickly and not in much depth at the beginning of the course. i probably should have spent more time on it then."
KurtDa says, "cool, slides"
Mr.Cole says, "So, I'll do the slide show and if we have more time at the end, I might mention a couple other things."
Mr.Cole shows slide #1.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
AGREEMENT, A REVIEW
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Mr.Cole shows slide #2.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Agreement is a process by which many languages signal the connectedness
of grammatically linked elements of a sentence. In some languages, agreement
rules can be quite complex. English, however, has evolved in such a way
that there are only a few such rules.
There are two main types of agreement required in English: between subjects
and verbs and between pronouns and their antecedents (the words to which
pronouns refer). These two areas are covered extensively in SMH Chs. 10 and
11. I am only going to hit a few of the key concepts that are presented
there. If you are having a lot of trouble with agreement, I recommend a
thorough review of both chapters.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
KurtDa says, "I just finished this in UNV 101"
JoeSa says, "I do more work in my UNV class than any other"
Mr.Cole shows slide #3.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
The main problem with both subject-verb and pronoun-antecedent agreement is
distinguishing between _singular_ and _plural_ forms.
For most verbs, the only distinctive form is the third person singular: the verb
form for he, she, and it. (He goes; she walks; it rains). Most sentences we
write here are in the third person, so as long as you know whether your subject
is singular or plural, you will probably use the correct verb form.
Similarly, the most commonly used pronouns are third person, and the main
point of confusion is whether a given pronoun is used in plural or singular
situations. Actually, many subject-verb agreement errors are really pronoun
errors as well, resulting from incorrectly identifying a given pronoun subject
as singular or plural.
So the main trick for avoiding AGR errors is memorizing a few lists of singular
and plural pronouns.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
KurtDa laughs.
WendyFr says, "I had UNV last quarter"
Mr.Cole says, "everyone following so far?"
JasonOg says, "yes sir"
Mr.Cole shows slide #4.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
The _personal_ pronouns (I, you, he/she/it, we, you, they and their objective and
posessive forms) usually do not give any trouble in themselves. (Except for the
question of sexist language, which I will come to later).
The problems usually arise with _indefinite_ pronouns, pronouns that do not refer to
specific nouns but rather to ideas of quantity or unspecified people or things. The
problem is that although these pronouns often appear to apply to plural concepts,
almost all are treated as singular for the purposes of agreement.
ALL of the following indefinite pronouns are _always_ singular:
another, any, anybody, anyone, anything, each, either, everybody, everyone,
everything, much, neither, nobody, no one, nothing, one, other, somebody,
someone, something
You are probably better trained at hearing the "singularness" of these pronouns when
they are used as subjects. Try creating a short sentence with any of them as the
subject ("Everybody wants someone to love," "Something's out there"), and you will
likely glide naturally into the singular form. Remember this as a test when you are
unsure in other situations.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
FrankBl says, "yes sir"
MaggieCa says, "yes sir"
MiMa says, "Mr. Cole, Shannon just informed that she cannot connect"
KurtDa says, "yep"
JasonOg says, "okay I misse that"
JasonOg says, "missed"
Mr.Cole says, "That list of indefinite pronouns, which can also be found on SMH, p. 237, is important. "
AnandVy has arrived.
AnandVy leaves for the Two.
AnandVy has arrived.
MaggieCa says, "slide show Anand"
Mr.Cole says, "The everyone/thing/body group is particularly tricky, because you would think they should be plural. "
AnandVy says, "Ahh. Arches is super busy"
Mr.Cole says, "But you wouldn't say, 'Everyone are here'; that's the test I am talking about."
Mr.Cole says, "Everyone OK with that?"
MaggieCa says, "yes sir"
JoeSa says, "10:04"
WendyFr says, "yes sir"
FrankBl says, "yes sir"
JulieOw says, "yes sir"
Mr.Cole shows slide #5.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
There are few indefinite pronouns that are _always_ plural:
both, few, many, others, several.
Again, you probably hear this "pluralness" when these pronouns are used as subjects
of simple sentences ("Many are called, but few are chosen").
There are also several indefinite pronouns that may be _either singular or plural_,
depending on the noun they refer to:
all, any, enough, more, most, none, some
For these, you must find the antecedent and determine whether it is singular or
plural. For example:
All of the cake was eaten.
(antecedent is "cake," singular, so the verb is singular)
All of the candidates are bums
(antecedent is "candidates," plural, so the verb is plural)
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
AnandVy says, "yes"
MiMa says, "yes sir"
Mr.Cole says, "Those two lists are also on SMH, p.237."
MaggieCa says, "OK"
FrankBl says, "alright"
KurtDa says, "k"
Mr.Cole shows slide #6.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Sexist language
The other reason people get into trouble with pronouns and agreement is by
trying to avoid sexist language.
In the past, it was permissible to use "he" related masculine forms when the
gender of the antecedent was unknown or unimportant ("Everyone must stand up
for his beliefs"). In the past few decades, this usage has become disapproved
of as being sexist. Whether you agree with that assessment or not, it is best
to avoid the generic "he," as it it now considered, at best incorrect, and
at worst, downright offensive.
Various methods of replacing the generic "he" have been proposed, and there is
not much agreement. I have seen "he or she," "s/he," "he/she," (s)he," and even
a movement for the generic "she." *I* find the simple "he or she" to be the least
jarring, but others may ask you to use other forms. The most important thing
to do is to be consistent in whichever usage you adopt.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
JoeSa says, "what's an SMH?"
Mr.Cole says, "St. Martin's Handbook, Joe."
JoeSa says, "just kidding"
AnandVy says, "Why is not correst to say he in referring to the collective?"
Mr.Cole says, "I think I have talked about this in class before, but maybe not with everyone."
AnandVy says, "No I mean, aside from "politcal correctness""
JasonOg says, "If it is my essay, why can't I write the way I choose"
MaggieCa says, "you might offend you're audience"
JasonOg says, "then they're offended"
MaggieCa says, "then it is harder to persuade them and that is the point of your essay"
WendyFr says, "good. I saw Nick in Uptown on Tuesday. I recognized him but he did not know it was me."
AnandVy says, "It should not offend anyone. They call boats and such "she's a good one", one could find that offensive but htey don't"
JoeSa says, "true Maggie"
MaggieCa says, "to pesuade"
JasonOg says, "so if I don't conform with society, I can't be a writer"
Mr.Cole says, "This was, essentially, a feminist issue. It was felt that to use "he" is to bias the language toward a masculine norm. Whether you agree or not, to use "he" in this context now is to make a particular political statement, one tha
t is understood as anti-feminist."
AnandVy says, "The best were and are non-conformists"
AnandVy says, "writers Imean"
JasonOg says, "well I don't look at it that way,"
MaggieCa says, "that is just the way it is"
KurtDa says, "so did you have fun downtown?"
JasonOg says, "yes"
NickSm says, "yeah"
WendyFr laughs.
Mr.Cole says, "In a sense, you are right, Jason. Language is by definition a social process. If you refuse to conform to the conventions of it, you risk alienating or offending your audience. There are times when you might WANT to do that, but
you should be very careful about it."
AnandVy says, "I am all for chick rights. And if someone mistakes what I'm saying for anti-feminism than they nedd to think about the real issue."
JasonOg says, "but it is my writing"
KurtDa says, "chick rights?"
MaggieCa says, "why are you writing"
JasonOg says, "whether people agree or not is they're problem"
AndrewGo laughs.
KurtDa says, "don't offend the females in this class..."
JoeSa says, "so when we use "he or she" what do we use? R they singular or plural, Mr. Cole?"
AnandVy says, "I'm not, my girlfriend is sitting right next to me and she's a feminist."
WendyFr smile
Mr.Cole says, "I don't want to get into a debate of political correctness. I think some of it goes too far myself. But unless you are willing to suffer the cosequences of disobeying accepted convention (which is what I am teaching in this class
), you need to abide by them."
AnandVy says, "I'm not, mu grilfreind is sitting right next to me and she's not offended. and she's afeminist."
NickSm says, "look, i'd like to reiterate that it was dark, wendy..."
KurtDa laughs.
FrankBl says, "so is one appropriate"
WendyFr says, "I know, Nick"
JasonOg says, "And if my message in an essay can be understood, I don't care about little grammar mistakes that most people wouldn't even notice"
WendyFr says, "it's OK"
NickSm says, "thanx, i feel better now..."
JoeSa says, "Mr. Cole, will you tell us what the range of grades on the last two papers were so we could get a feeling for where we stand?"
Mr.Cole says, "'He or she' will always be plural (a rule I did not plan on going over is that a compound subject using 'or' is singular or plural depending on the element closest to the verb. If both are singular, then the whole is singular"
AnandVy says, "For example?"
FrankBl says, "Mr C is the use of "one" alright"
AndrewGo says, "Okay, okay, on to the slides."
Mr.Cole says, "One is perfectly fine, though it can eventually gety you into this problem to."
FrankBl says, "How"
Mr.Cole says, "One example of the "or" rule and then I'l go on"
AnandVy says, "How"
JoeSa says, "Thanks Mr.Cole"
KurtDa laughs.
FrankBl says, "How does "one" get you in trouble"
JasonOg says, "I sure don't want to offend the femenists, but they sure can make writing suck"
Mr.Cole says, "The dip or the chips are making me sick. (chips, plural, determines the number)"
KurtDa laughs.
MaggieCa says, "some take it way too far"
Mr.Cole says, "The dip or the celery is making me sick. (both singular, so verb is singular)"
Mr.Cole says, "Conventionally, you do not write 'The chips or the dip is making me sick.'"
JoeSa says, "so the closest word to the verb and the "or" is what determines the verb form?"
AnandVy says, "Conventionally? But is it okay."
Mr.Cole says, "One more slide and then I'll answer any questions I missed"
Mr.Cole shows slide #7.
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
So far, these considerations do not pose a problem for agreement. The problem arises
in more complex constructions, where the constant use of "he or she"/"him or her"
etc. become awkward.
In speech, we usually get around this by shifting to a generic "they" to avoid having
to worry about gender ("I have met someone who said they didn't like me"). There is
precedent for this in literary usage, and it might well become the standard convention,
but RIGHT NOW, using "they" in singular situations is _incorrect_ and an agreement
error.
However, you _can_ use "they" if you also shift the _entire_ sentence into the plural.
This may require some creative rephrasing, but it is ofetn the best option for
avoiding the problem of sexist language: "All the people I have ever met have said they
liked me."
* * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
WendyFr smiles.
Mr.Cole says, "sorry for the ron-over lines."
JasonOg says, "I hate thiws"
JasonOg says, "this"
JoeSa says, "no prob, scroll up time"
JasonOg is so mad he can't spell
WendyFr says, "it's OK Jason"
FrankBl says, "How does "one" get you in trouble"
Mr.Cole says, "I don't _like_ grammar. Call it a necessary evil. Like doing situps."
MiMa says, "really"
AnandVy laughs
Mr.Cole says, "One gets you in trouble the same way "he or she" can, in a long sentence with many pronouns, it can become awkward ("One must always remember to do one's best when one is doing something one cares about") and one is tempted to sh
ift to "they" or some other construction. "
AnandVy says, "Got it"
JoeSa says, "Short, simple, and few-pronoun sentences for me from now on "
FrankBl says, "so if you make sure that you do not shift to they then are you alright"
JoeSa says, "See Jane run."
JasonOg says, "What ever happened to the Constitution, ever heard of free speech"
MaggieCa says, "what are you talking about?"
AnandVy says, "Man created these strustured rules aof grammar. It's just as arbitrary as making up a random language."
KurtDa says, "did you get sick, or did you get laid, that kind of thing. basically, did you have fun?"
Mr.Cole says, "I see this use of "they" a lot, and it is getting more and more prevalent. If I had to guess, i would say that in another 10 years it will be an acceptable option. But you need to know that as of now, it is unacceptable in formal
writing. "
AnandVy says, "I mean structured"
MaggieCa laughs
Mr.Cole says, "Oh, and free speech is of course a lie. One of the many in the Constitution."
KurtDa laughs.
KurtDa says, "speaking of free speech..."
AnandVy applauds Mr. Cole
JoeSa laughs reeely hard
JasonOg says, "give me a break Mr.C, it has its limits,but only for the protection of this country"
AndrewGo says, "Man, I thought we were talking about grammar"
MaggieCa says, "you better be carefut Kurt"
MaggieCa says, "careful"
WendyFr laughs.
JoeSa says, "calling all Beavises"
JasonOg says, "and Anand, you can kiss my butt"
Mr.Cole says, "Yes, it is arbitrary. That is, in fact, one of the strengths of language. "
Mr.Cole says, "Sorry, Jason. I should have put a winky after that statement ;-)"
KurtDa says, "what Jason"
KurtDa says, "?"
AnandVy says, "Andrew, the government only protects it's won and does not care for it's citizens. It wants us to stay drunk and blind. While keeping plants illegal."
JasonOg says, "yes sir"
AnandVy says, "Its own"
Mr.Cole says, "So, are we clear on agreement?"
FrankBl says, "what are you talking about Anand"
WendyFr says, "yes sir"
AnandVy says, "Yes"
AndrewGo says, "Are you talking to me?"
MaggieCa says, "what is going on"
AnandVy says, "I was just talking"
KurtDa says, "yes"
AndrewGo says, "I don't know"
NickSm says, "gotcha"
FrankBl says, "I am clear with you Mr C but not what Anand is saying"
MaggieCa says, "yes sir"
JoeSa says, "yes sir Mr. Cole I am clear on agreement"
AndrewGo says, "yes sir"
JoeSa says, "or i think"
MaggieCa says, "what is a winky"
Mr.Cole says, "There are a few other rules covered in the SMH, but other than simple carelessness or typos, the indefinite articles and the generic they are the main culprits for the agreement errors I see."
JoeSa says, ":-)"
AnandVy says, "That the government cares only for its own state of wealth"
JasonOg says, "Anand, you are so full of it"
Mr.Cole says, "That's a word I just made up for the "winking" smiley ;-), as opposed to the regualr smiley, :-)."
AndrewGo says, "Okay and this pertains to grammar how"
AnandVy says, "Full of information my friend."
JoeSa says, "Oh, cool"
MaggieCa says, "y'all are too defensive. Let's get back to grammar"
AndrewGo says, "Even though I don't want to, Maggie is right"
JoeSa says, "I hear that"
Mr.Cole says, "Thank you, Maggie."
MaggieCa says, "anytime"
Mr.Cole says, "That was the main grammar point I wanted to emphasize."
Mr.Cole says, "I did want to say a few words on revising, though."
KurtDa says, "go for it Cole"
MaggieCa says, "laughs"
Mr.Cole says, "actually, first i want to make a distinction between revising and proofreading or editing."
MaggieCa laughs
Mr.Cole says, "Revising really describes the process of working on the content and structure of your paper. Everything that happens between the rough draft and the final draft. "
MiMa says, "ok"
FrankBl says, "ok"
Mr.Cole says, "Proofreading should really be a separate step. Once you are happy with the argument, THEN go through it carefully looking for mechanical and grammatical errors and no longer worrying about those other issues)."
MaggieCa says, "so proofreading is after revising?"
Mr.Cole says, "It helps a lot to get some time away from the paper before doing your proofreading. First, it's impossible to do good editing at 4 am after you've been writing all night. Not that any of you do that, of course."
MaggieCa says, "not me"
FrankBl says, "no way"
AnandVy says, "Sometimes."
JulieOw says, "Kurt does"
MaggieCa says, "actually by four my brain won't work anymore"
KurtDa says, "hey now"
Mr.Cole says, "Second, you need to clear your head so that you are reading what you _wrote_, and not what you meant to write."
JoeSa winks at the girl sitting next to him
JasonOg says, "thats the best piece of advice I've heard"
JoeSa says, "gotcha Mr. Cole"
Mr.Cole says, "As an undergrad, I pulled a lot of late-night paper-writing sessions, but I always made a point of going to morning classes and havinbg a nice lunch and THEN going back to the paper for final editing. It worked pretty well."
MaggieCa says, "good idea"
AnandVy says, "Yes."
FrankBl says, "alright"
Mr.Cole says, "There are other tricks you can play if you have trouble spotting errors: read the paper backwards, one sentnce at a time. That will slow you down and force you to pay attention to the words on the page."
AnandVy says, "Interesting"
AndrewGo says, "Wow, never thought of that before"
MaggieCa says, "OK"
FrankBl says, "I have never thought of that"
JoeSa says, "same here"
AndrewGo says, "That was weird"
KurtDa says, "I believe it's time"
JoeSa says, "wow time flew today"
Mr.Cole says, "Again, this all comes down to credibility. A carefully edited piece of work shows care and attention to detail. A sloppy, error-ridden work shows the opposite. "
AndrewGo says, "Another good idea"
MaggieCa says, "see y'all tomorrow?"
Mr.Cole says, "OK. That should put y'all in good shape to work on drafts tonight and talk about them in class tomorrow. Good luck."
Mr.Cole says, "k?"
MiMa says, "Joe, want to eat with us?"
AndrewGo says, "See ya later!"
KurtDa says, "I need to go guys, i'll talk to you later"
JulieOw says, "thanks bye everyone"
MaggieCa says, "bye"
JasonOg has disconnected.
AndrewGo has disconnected.
MaggieCa has disconnected.
GeraldLa has disconnected.
FrankBl says, "can I talk to you right after class Mr Cole"
NickSm says, "see ya'll later"
AnandVy says, "Mr. Cole I need to meet with you tomorrow."
JulieOw has disconnected.
Mr.Cole says, "Sure, Frank"
JoeSa says, "Thanks, but I just ate at 2:15"
KurtDa has disconnected.
FrankBl says, "thanks"
WendyFr smiles.
End log: Monday, February 16, 1998 4:16:42 pm Virtual Park Hall time --